TIGSource: Perfectionism

Perfectionism

Derek Yu — Thu, 20 Mar 2008 20:13:00 +0000

I’m a fan of Passage and Gravitation, Jason Rohrer’s self-described “artgames,” but I know a lot of people find them irritating (to downright reprehensible!). Well, however you feel about the games, perhaps Jason’s new project, a monthly article for Escapist Magazine called “Game Design Sketchbook,” might convince you that the man at least has some interesting ideas!

In his inaugural design sketchbook, Jason brings up a concept that has spelled doom for many a promising game developer – perfectionism – and developed a game around it.

The game itself is fun and I think illustrates the concept pretty well – there were quite a few moments where I felt like I was obtaining some further insight into my own tendencies. However, it’s not a game that I would play too many times over. This is, perhaps, indicative of some sort of failure of Perfectionism as a game… I think if the production was not so sparse it would be more suited for repeated playthroughs.

As a design sketch I think it works pretty well, however.

(Thanks, Heather!)

"Perfectionism" by Prio

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:47:34 +0000

Let me know when you come up with The Correct Definitions

And have some interesting xoxoxs

"Perfectionism" by konjak

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:30:53 +0000

Eponymouse, I was just saying these fights seem more about convincing people than accepting their tastes.

And, of course, I am more a fan of traditional games. :)

"Perfectionism" by BigBossSNK

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:56:31 +0000

King, I’ve already given my definition of gameplay as direct or indirect control over the game world state.

I don’t include “how the game plays out”, cause that’s the story that the gameplay creates, an element of design.

Without getting technical, to the extend that you don’t control the story, the story is a (literary / visual / audio etc.) component beyond your influence, a part of design.

"Perfectionism" by mio

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:46:25 +0000

I’m bisexual.

"Perfectionism" by BigBossSNK

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:32:00 +0000

It’s interesting how closed-minded you are.

Were someone to provide you with a definition for both terms that you can’t find fault with, your “forever constant” stance would change.

"Perfectionism" by King-n

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:20:08 +0000

How arrogant of you Prio.

Gameplay: The controll of the game and how it plays out.

Great Gameplay: The FUN control of the game and how it plays out.

I believe that’s somewhere around the correct definition. However, I would like to see other definitions and see how they compare.

"Perfectionism" by Prio

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:04:43 +0000

My take on this subject will forever be as follows:

“art”: a word which people throw around as if it has a great deal of definite meaning and importance. Has little-to-no real definition besides that which each individual person pulls out of their ass.

“great gameplay”: a phrase which people throw around as if it has a great deal of definite meaning and importance. Has little-to-no real definition besides that which each individual person pulls out of their ass.

hugs and kisses <3

"Perfectionism" by Eponymouse

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 09:31:20 +0000

There should be a website that only says “Shut up about art/not art and think whatever you want” and everyone has to visit it once every day.

Roar!

I just want to know why it has become so important that games become art full of hidden expression, and that these games are automatically better in a field named after the act of having just “fun”.

I reply to your comment with a bulleted list!

It isn’t about hiding expression, really. It’s not like Rohrer’s games, for example, are very obfuscated. They have a very direct symbol -> meaning relationship, AND descriptions of what they mean.
I don’t think anyone is pushing this point. People talking about ‘art games’ doesn’t mean they’re saying art games are better than gamey-game-games it’s different goals which is why I think we see friction about this in the community. However, can you see how a game which is also an expression about life, the universe, or whatever might be somewhat more enriching for the player?
Does it matter what the field is named for fun? Would you let that determine what you want to do with the medium? The fact is we call pretty much anything on a computer that’s interactive and has graphics a game no matter what the creator’s intent is. The vocabulary isn’t really advanced enough to now to accommodate diverse goals.

Sorry for the disproportionate response konjak, but your comment held some really common sentiments that I wanted to reply to.

"Perfectionism" by mio

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:49:39 +0000

Good point.

The initial purpose of architecture is to provide people with habitation. But that doesn’t make architecture inferior to the “high art” which serves no practical purpose.

In the same way, games can satisfy our gaming “appetite” but they still can have artistical value.

Maybe I’m wrong, I don’t know.

"Perfectionism" by konjak

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 07:02:06 +0000

Before there’s an uproar, that was a joke.

"Perfectionism" by konjak

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 06:51:48 +0000

There should be a website that only says “Shut up about art/not art and think whatever you want” and everyone has to visit it once every day.

"Perfectionism" by Jason Rohrer

Sat, 22 Mar 2008 04:34:54 +0000

2 mio:

Okay, but you’re just going by the dictionary definition. Here’s another dictionary definition that is similar to the one that you presented (this one from Webster):

“the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects”

But these definitions don’t match another, common use of the word “art,” perhaps closer to what Ebert calls “high art.” The people who claim “games cannot be art” are not saying “games don’t meet the Oxford or Webster definition of art,” because of course games do. What they’re saying is that, “Games don’t satisfy this other definition of art.”

So what is this other definition? Here is where it gets murky, and no one seems to agree. The best I can come up with is a weak definition that probably encompasses stuff that most people would call art. I.e., this definition is not strong enough to reasonably exclude the other stuff, but perhaps we can all agree that the stuff it includes can reasonably be called art. Here goes:

Art is the use of a medium to:

successfully explore complex and subtle aspects of the human condition,
give viewers valuable and lasting insights about themselves or the world around them, and/or
leave viewers thinking about a work long after they are done experiencing the work.

So, if a work does one or more of these things, then it is art. If it does none of these things, it might still be art (because this definition is intentionally weak). I will also admit that this definition is not as tight as it could be, since the points overlap a bit (“giving insights” and “making you think” are similar), but I wanted to include three explicit “paths to art” in the definition to give it a bit of breadth.

Also, even if we agree on the definition, there will still be disagreement on what works satisfy the definition. I might find that a work made me think about myself in a new way, whereas you may find that the work made you think about nothing. Thus, we’d still have the problem of “art for me” vs. “art for you,” but at least we’d both be using the same definition.

I’m sure The Longest Journey does some of these things. I suspect, however, that it does them primarily through its linear story line. Thus, The Longest Journey: The Movie, though perhaps less engaging and less “fun,” would have a similar art-effect on you (still make you think in new ways, etc.).

Perhaps I’m missing something about TLJ… perhaps one of the interactive puzzles triggers 1, 2, or 3 in the players. If so, please give an example so that we can discuss it.

Anyway, using games to ape movies is not all that interesting to me. I’m more interested in using features that are unique to games to do 1, 2, and 3. And what’s unique to games? Game mechanics and gameplay. Thus, you’ll find no linear story lines at all in my games. The mechanics themselves, and the choices you make as you play, are supposed to invoke 1, 2, and 3. Maybe they do, and maybe they don’t. I’m just explaining what I’m trying to do.

And about games necessarily being “fun.” It seems that this requirement would seriously limit the subjects that games can tackle. We might want to make a game about a painful divorce, but then think “Okay, but how are we going to make it fun?” If it was indeed fun, it wouldn’t feel right—it wouldn’t capture the feeling of a painful divorce. A painful divorce still involves lots of interesting choices, so it could make a very compelling game (a game that you want to keep playing, a game that hooks you for hours, etc.), but the hook would not be the fun-factor.

And of course, we allow (and expect) books and films to tackle topics like this.

You might not be interested in a game about a painful divorce. Okay, fair enough. Would you also avoid a movie about the same topic (Kramer vs. Kramer, for example)? Even if you avoid such movies, I suspect that you wouldn’t necessarily say that they somehow fail as movies.

Saying all games must be “fun” is equivalent to demanding that all movies must be “funny.” In other words, you’re limiting the medium to only one of its possible genres (your preferred genre).

"Perfectionism" by DoctorAnus

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:04:37 +0000

I think that dissing projects like Jason’s for the sake of being ”underwhelming” or ”unpolished” (none of these terms used here) is completely missing the point. I prefer to think of these experiments as parts of a coherent whole in construction, bouncing off each other, rather than judging the individual product and moving on. And I definitely think of Perfectionism, in its own modest way, as another right step in an intriguing overall direction.

"Perfectionism" by konjak

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:31:18 +0000

"Perfectionism" by mio

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:22:28 +0000

2 Tim:

Halo is a Rip Story cave-off.

"Perfectionism" by Tim

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:04:07 +0000

You mean Halo 3 is better than any indie game ever created.

"Perfectionism" by mio

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:48:23 +0000

2 Jason Rohrer:

As I said before, every game is art since every game is a product of skill and imagination.

My opinion is that The Longest Journey, as a product of skill and imagination, is much better than any indie game ever created.

"Perfectionism" by Jason Rohrer

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 19:21:57 +0000

mio:

Because of your reference to it, I just downloaded the demo for “The Longest Journey.”

What makes you call it an “art game”?

"Perfectionism" by King-n

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:00:25 +0000

Whoops, I meant to say: To me a good art game… not To a good art game…

"Perfectionism" by ChevyRay

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:48:08 +0000

Awesome conversation..

"Perfectionism" by Mischief Maker

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:30:32 +0000

No, no, no. “Imagination” is what art games are all about. You just slap together a game, amd release it with the message:

“This is a game I wrote as an artistic expression. It kind of has something to do with bowel cancer and tourettes syndrome and something else that I’m not going to tell you. But I’m really not going to explain how the game relates to these things because it’s better that the player comes up with their own interpretation.”

So then players worldwide play the crappy game trying to connect the dots and puzzle out the hidden “meaning.” And since the meaning is their idea, they love it! Art!

"Perfectionism" by mio

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:21:11 +0000

2 King-n:

According to Concise Oxford English Dictionary, art is “the expression or application of creative skill and imagination, especially through a visual medium”.

Hence, games are art.

But the so-called “art games” (usually made in 2-3 weeks by people without imagination) are not.

"Perfectionism" by Deceth

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:07:44 +0000

Hey, let not start dissing ET! His neck stretching abilities are definitely art-like.

"Perfectionism" by Fishy Boy

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:05:03 +0000

PHeMoX: I was delighted when I read that.

"Perfectionism" by King-n

Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:59:07 +0000

I don’t expect these tags to work but here it goes.

To a good art game needs to incorporate most of the folowing:

art style: Retro, Cell shading, Art Deco, Greek Painting, what have you.
Interesting story: Deep, Short tale, Implied understanding. Something that gives the game a purpose and grabs the players attention.
Original music choices: It has to add to the feel of the game, grant it an emotion that connects the player to the game.
Symbolism: Not entirely necessary, but I do like to see it.
GOOD GAMEPLAY: Above all the absolute most important part of games of any form; if you don’t incorporate good gameplay you might as well make a movie.

all IMO.