A Shawn64 Retrospective
Posted by Derek Yu Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:57:00 GMT
Clysm, aka tapeworm, has written a nice retrospective on Shawn “Shawn64” Noel, a prolific and well-respected developer in the Game Maker community. Shawn was best known for his Jetz Rampage series of games, as well as Street Bike Fury, the last game he released before he tragically took his own life in 2006. He was 17 years old.
(Source: moshboy, via IndieGames.com)
Blimey that’s sad. To be obviously so respected, yet still feel the need… rest in peace.
So tragic :(
Dang. Sad. Guy had nice eyes, too.
I feel really bad for him. To quote, but more accurately, “What an artist has died.”
2006? What the damn, this is just hitting news? Wow.
Really dunno what to say. He was much too humble.
Must’ve sucked to be him if life was that shitty.
Poor guy! Make sure to watch out for your personal mental health everyone. It’s a rough world we live in and I speak from experience in saying that it’s easy to get dangerously depressed regardless of your situation if you don’t know the signs to watch out for.
If you start having any thoughts where you are seriously considering the best way to kill yourself, when to do it, etc, you need to go get help of some kind. You can’t wait when this happens because its probably going to be at least a few weeks after seeing counselors or starting on medications that you start to feel any better at all, and when you want to kill yourself all it takes is an unexpected impulse or mood swing to actually try it. With help you can make your way out of depression though and when you do life is 1000x better than it is during the best moments when you are depressed. And that’s the truth. Good luck and stay safe. ;-)
For someone aged 17, he gave a lot of people a lot of fun–I remember introducing Mini Golf Pro to my eight-year-old cousin. He deserved (and deserves) every bit of respect he got.
Also, do take Anonymous’ advice to heart. If you’re feeling depressed or otherwise mentally troubled, get help. You’ve got a lot more support available than you think; all you have to do is ask for it.
What the f– He died? Dang, I actually knew that guy.
One could just kill one’s self and get it over with, if that’s what they really want.
In this case, maybe he did exactly what he wanted.
Some people don’t have support available, or don’t believe that paying a doctor to half-heartedly listen to them complain is “real support”.
Often, people who ask for help simply get ignored by their friends and family.
Other people often don’t care about an individual until something like this happens.
Sad. I randomly stumbled across Jetz Fusion or whatever that Jetpack game was called a year or two ago and thought it was fun. Sad indeed.
Never thought of having to read “game developer” and “suicide” in one sentence some day.
“Other people often don’t care about an individual until something like this happens.”
I don’t think people quickly would assume that people like this guy have major social or mental problems. It probably has little to do with ‘not caring’. Ask yourself this, is it really possible to help these people? A friend of mine committed suicide too years ago and we all knew it wasn’t going good with him for some time, however we couldn’t convince him of anything… not even our friendly advice of seeking professional help. If anything, that probably was a mistake on our side to even suggest to him. There’s no simple way of confronting these people with their problems, even professionals can’t always stop people from taking their own lives.
The people like this guy lock themselves up in their maze of thoughts of extreme loneliness and sadness about whatever is truly bothering them.
The weirdest thing is that in such state the worse you feel the better your creations are.
@Viper: AKA: The Hemingway Effect.
This is one of the two guys who made me take up game maker. R.I.P man, it was freaking depressing when I first found out you died.
Guys, take care of yourselves. I don’t want to see what happened to Shawn happen to any of you.
If you are feeling low on a regular basis, feeling hopeless about things and distrustful of those close to you, or contemplating suicide, seek help. At the very least, find out if you are at risk of having clinical depression.
Realize that:
Depression is a chemical imbalance, and it is totally treatable.
The best way to deal with depression is a combination of counseling and taking medication. A good psychologist can recommend medication for you and will help you work out your feelings.
Medication will NOT change your personality, it will only improve your mood.
If left untreated, you could ruin your relationships and possibly your life. If treated, you could be happy, and really enjoy stuff. As Anonymous said, life could be a thousand times better for you. Why not try?
Realize that depression is a downward spiral. Your negative feelings (sadness, anger) and hopeless attitude toward life will inevitably drive away those close to you, and make you feel more hopeless and alone, further driving the depression.
Ultimately, your friends/family can help you, but they can’t treat you.
Here’s a page with more information about counseling and anti-depressants:
http://www.utexas.edu/student/cmhc/booklets/meds/meds.html
Respect people for being different and having other opinions on life, rather than trying to force them to take medication or be brainwashed into becoming “like you”.
Recognize that its okay to not be happy all the time, and if someone wants to get out early, its ultimately between them and ‘God’.
Like PHeMoX says, its not really possible to help “these people”. They’re not like you, they’re on a different path. Many of them don’t even want help.
Let sleeping dogs lie. And if they want to sleep forever, that’s okay too.
Yeah, great. While we’re at it, let’s stop treating all those burns victims. I mean, they’re already on fire, right? What can we do? They’re just on a different path from us.
I don’t think depression has anything to do with personality/who-you-are and everything to do with mood.
Also, consider that most people with depression turn to alcohol and drug abuse, which is a form of “medication,” albeit a highly destructive one.
Yeah, great. While we’re at it, let’s stop treating all those burns victims. I mean, they’re already on fire, right? What can we do? They’re just on a different path from us.
Sorry for the somewhat sick analogy, but actually it’s a lot like someone that’s indeed on fire, but there’s no blanket or bucket of water nearby. Instead you have to convince the burning victim to go downstairs, because that’s where the water is at. It’s not impossible at all to treat these persons and literally save them. However a lot of them genuinely believe there’s no stair or elevator to downstairs. It’s like sometimes they simply have a deep fear for water and ultimately getting better.
Anyways, I totally agree with Derek on all points he made. By all means these people should always seek help. The people themselves must realize that they are in need of help too and that there are good professionals and treatments.
Show some respect. This post is in memory of Shawn, not a PSA.
Every time someone says something slightly off topic the comments become riddled with sarcastic analogies.
Err… I’ts better not to overdo with anti-depresseants. I mean, I used to take them along with neuroleptics (yeah, in a hospital… met lots of nice people there and I don’t mean the staff). Side effects from anything that adjusts the way brain works may be quite disturbing. The worst being that in the end I stopped drawing, although the best sketch was done a week before I went to the doctor. Annoying to say the least.
RIP I know how depression can completely cloud one’s judgement. My family and the indie dream is what keeps me alive
I agree with not overdoing anti-depressants, personally I don’t buy into the simplified ‘chemical imbalance’ argument. My doctor was more than happy to prescribe me these pills without explaining the potential dangers. Long story short if I hadn’t researched my medication I would have rotted away in chemical despair. I’m not saying completely rule it out, but just try to be aware that these drugs can have adverse effects and that doesn’t mean you are beyond help.
I would suggest first looking at your diet, allergies, lifestyle, medication side-effects. I guess the problem is if you are already deeply depressed or medicated this might be difficult for you.
Hell maybe one day games themselves will be able get through to these people
Every time someone says something slightly off topic the comments become riddled with sarcastic analogies.
I apologize, but I was very serious about the analogy.
I was actually referring to “chutup.”
Basically, this chap, “Or…” is being an extremist dick about it and having completely illogical views. Don’t help the depressed, man! Don’t let the Man steal our identities and medicate us into a oblivion, maaan!
Obviously, yes, there is no “normal” human being. There is no status quo in the ever-changing human mind. Et cetera. To suggest that this subjectivity might render depression a positive experience or state of mind for some people, however, is nonsensical. Yes, everyone has different likes and dislikes. That means that they react positively to some things, and negatively to others. Depression is a negative feeling, a negative reaction. It is the effect, not the cause, and, ultimately, it is only the cause that is subjective in the finite range of human emotions. Hopefully you follow me.
Obviously, there are many, many downsides to medication. Over-medication, especially in America, from what I hear, is a growing problem and cause of concern, but it also has positive aspects. Nothing is black and white, and to think otherwise is naive.
ANYWAY. I hadn’t heard of this guy until now, but it’s a real shame that he felt the need to take his own life, especially when he so obviously brought enjoyment to, and was respected and liked by, so many other people. I’ll have to take his games for a spin. Several spins, as the case may be.
Sorry for the double post, but I just noticed an error: I meant that medication, not over-medication, has positive aspects. Obviously, over-medication is excessive. That’s why it’s called over-medication. yes. indeedy.
The notion that even if someone feels their life is ruined, that they can just take a pill and feel better about it, seems more harmful than helpful. If they’re friends, why not help them improve their life?
EarMeNow: “I would suggest first looking at your diet, allergies, lifestyle, medication side-effects. I guess the problem is if you are already deeply depressed or medicated this might be difficult for you.”
The reality is, few people really care enough to truly help their friends that are depressed. Rather than engage them in a meaningful discussion, they just either:
a) ignore them b) insult them c) gang up on them with a group of friends to try to force them to act like the rest of the group d) ship them off to “professional help” so that they’re out of way
Drugs and psychobabble are a poor substitute for real, meaningful friendships and relationships.
It’s kinda difficult to make friends when you feel depressed for a long time. Or paranoid… or misanthropic… Even those who all of a sudden try to approach you with “help” are seen as irritating, hostile etc
Controlled tests show that no anti-depressant is actually any more effective at treating depression than a placebo. Pfizer’s own testing has indicated this for years, and they are perfectly aware of the fact, but they continue to push useless drugs as a cure for social or personal phenomena like alienation or hopelessness. Of course, they also murdered a whole bunch of African children and refused to stand trial, so what do you expect?
The “serotonin imbalance” theory of depression is not backed by a single shred of medical evidence, and at this point I think it is unrealistic to consider it a valid model of depression.
Regarding suicide, I think it is a choice that everyone should have the freedom to make. I don’t believe anyone should be ‘forced’ to live if they don’t want to. Particularly, in cases where there is terminal illness or incurable suffering, I think suicide is a valid escape. I don’t know that it should be actively encouraged, but I don’t think it should be prohibited.
However, in the case of a young person who is severely depressed, I think that suicide is definitely not the best solution. When you’re depressed, it’s difficult to see the possibility of any change in the events which effect your condition, but the fact remains that many of the traits which seem to induce depression – precocity, a propensity for thoughtfulness – can lead one to become a more well-rounded individual as an adult. Personally, I can’t say I’m perpetually gleeful, but despite growing up with serious depression problems, I am at worst moody, and certainly not suicidal.
I think it’s one thing to allow an elderly person the choice to die peacefully rather than suffer greatly before dying, but another entirely to encourage a young person to give up years of potentially happy and fulfilling life because they have problems, however intractable they might seem.
Oh wow, he passed away? I had no idea. Cripes, that’s sad…
As for the depression talk: I suffer from depression and have suicidal thoughts every week or so. Depression isn’t at all fun, and it’s not something anybody really wants. Depression is absolutely something that should be treated.
Really sad to hear this.
I have suffered (still suffer, as afaik depression as such is not healable) from massive bouts of depression myself, with lots of bad things happening. I went to a psychologist as well as a psychiatrist and I took meds for some time.
I had no strong bout of depression for over 3 years now, without taking any medication. Tho the counceling has helped me to realise when a new bout could come and thus counteract it to some extent.
Yes, Meds can help, but I do not think they are ultimately needed. Much more important is to have a good environment, to realise what you need and to work out mental troubles and not let stuff stir inside you. Talking about stuff with friends and family helped me a lot and I think I would not be alone here.
R.I.P.
Thanks, guys, for sharing your views. I don’t think anyone means disrespect toward Shawn, and it’s a poorly-understood subject so I’m glad there’s discussion going on. If it can make even one person feel better, I think it’s worth it.
The difference comes down to whether or not the person in question has an “illness” or if they’re just feeling bad because of problems in their life.
I think its an open question whether depression is a ‘disease’ (the source of the troubles) or whether its a symptom brought up by other problems. Its probably different for each person and situation.
But ultimately, I think its dangerous to assume that everyone wants to look at life the same way, or that everyone needs to be happy on the same ‘level’. Everyone is different, everyone has problems that are hard to explain and understand.
I would assume that most people don’t want to be labeled as being sufferers of certain conditions. Most people just want to be understood. Some people are harder to understand than others.
I think that its a very delicate issue, and its almost as dangerous to try to simplify/generalize the solutions, as it is to ignore the problem completely.
Should clarify: sometimes the solution -can- be simple, and I’m not suggesting that the people who are putting forward solutions here are wrong or that they should stop.
I just think that its a very complicated issue, and that making assumptions about people can sometimes be damaging.
I’m putting that out there as a general point for everyone to think about.
I Like Cake, I’d like to see the studies you’re referring to here, because this is news to me. Could you provide a URL?
I guess maybe I should drop in my two cents, and try to be as nice as possible about it considering the circumstances. For the most part, I agree with I Like Cake’s stance, that the right to control our own life and death should belong to everyone, but I think people who are suicidal are generally no longer in a fit state to make their own decisions. For the same reason we don’t let people drive home after surgery, with all the drugs in their system, we shouldn’t let people who are in a suicidal state go ahead and off themselves. Whether it’s specifically a ‘seratonin imbalance’ or not, there’s certainly a chemical basis to depression, because there’s a chemical basis to basically every brain activity. Because of this, I would certainly not discount the possibility of a pharmaceutical solution out of hand even IF the common solutions turn out to be on average no better than placebos.
Anyway, I’ve rambled a bit, but to sum up my position… Internal chemicals can be every bit as harmful as external chemicals, and saying that we should let people make life-and-death decisions when they’re being influenced by either is irresponsible and… well, I said I’d try to be nice.
Well, I apologise in advance for being pedantic, but if internal chemicals are indeed as harmful as external chemicals (I don’t disagree), and if “saying that we should let people make life-and-death decisions when they’re being influenced by [them] is irresponsible,” nobody would EVER be able to make life-and-death decisions, at least if what science tells us about the workings of the mind (and, specifically, emotions) is true.
you all say the faily can help but in a lot of cases the family is the problem, if I were ever depressed it would most likely be from my family, whom I hate.
I don’t know why but every time I see this page it makes me sad… I have never played his games or known him, I guess it’s just the amount of… well simply badness in the world.
Yes, that would be the logical extreme :)
This is one of those unsolvable conundrums. We’re simultaneously 100% responsible for everything we do but still completely subject to the caprice of chemicals.
In the end, we just have to play it by instinct, however unreliable that may be. Just do your best to help guide your friends, and hope that they can keep it together enough to think clearly despite whatever imbalances are in their system, whether introduced externally or produced internally.
In the end, though, I’m just plain selfish, and I’m not interested in giving any of my friends that choice. It doesn’t matter to me whether it’s external or internal, but I’ll break their fingers before I let them pull the trigger. I’m alright with being selfish.
Here’s a Globe and Mail article about the findings:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080226.wdepression0226/BNStory/specialScienceandHealth/home
It appears that many drug companies have been selectively publishing their results based on how well their drugs performed in any given study, introducing a significant bias, which, once accounted for, indicates there is no statistically significant improvement from using antidepressants.
For many years, however, the evidence has been questionable at best. Every doctor I have talked to in the past has acknowledged the lack of good statistical evidence for the efficacy of antidepressants, citing instead anecdotal evidence about how they have patients who ‘seem to have recovered’ on antidepressants. Regrettably, I still hear the same excuse from doctors and psychologists even now that this new information has come to light.
My link and spiel got moderated, but they will presumably be up there once someone gets to them.
Well, I apologise in advance for being pedantic, but if internal chemicals are indeed as harmful as external chemicals (I don’t disagree), and if “saying that we should let people make life-and-death decisions when they’re being influenced by [them] is irresponsible,” nobody would EVER be able to make life-and-death decisions, at least if what science tells us about the workings of the mind (and, specifically, emotions) is true.
Yes, but our legal and medical systems both define a mental state that is ‘normal’ or ‘rational’ and a range of other states that are ‘irrational’. People aren’t allowed to drive when they’re intoxicated or too young, because they are considered to be irrational. In the same way, people suffering from severe depression can be classified as irrational, so they are not fit to make life-or-death decisions.
Some people might say that using a single ‘one size fits all’ definition of rational and irrational is wrong, and it may not ‘fit’ everyone, but we have to balance the needs of society with the needs of the individual, just like with any other laws. To use the same analogy: an intelligent and responsible 10-year-old child might be quite capable of driving a car safely. Is he allowed to? No, because he’s an exception. He has to obey the same laws as everyone else, for the good of everyone.
If you’re going to try meds, some may work for you, some may not. But, if possible, effexor should be avoided. It can have horrible withdrawal symptoms.
As far as meds being mere placebos? Well… the same studies showed that sugary drinks had no direct contribution to kids acting crazy hyperactive, so I have to take that with a pinch of salt.
For sure, we don’t know enough about the human mind to control it, but the idea that these meds have *no* effect on brain chemistry (even if it’s not the intended one - my withdrawal symptoms from effexor were very real) I find that hard to swallow. Probably a bit of scientologist propoganda.
But regardless of your opinion on meds, talk therapy is always good - just having someone to talk stuff out with who is not otherwise connected to your life is so helpful.
Yeah, I just meant that we’re always being affected by chemicals, so what you say is true. There needs to be some line drawn.
I would, however, say as an aside that most people are “irrational,” most of the time (myself, I’m sure, included). But, yeah, the irrationality has to be limited to some extent I guess.
I don’t really know what point I’m trying to make here.
Actually, I want to withdraw that comment, having read the rest of the thread properly.
Whether or not anti-depressants are a good or bad thing, I still maintain that talk therapy/counseling is a good idea for depression.
In the same way, people suffering from severe depression can be classified as irrational, so they are not fit to make life-or-death decisions. And who shall decide whether the depression is severe enough? Anyway, drunk driving is dangerous for everyone - suicide is a very personal thing.
I can’t claim to always provide the answers, I just try to ask the right questions.
Consider the statement “He wasn’t acting like himself.” This statement is obviously absurd: The way someone acts is, by definition, like themselves. However, it’s unlike the personality you’ve come to associate with this person. The point being, basically the only criteria you can judge someone’s actions by are by the personality you’ve come to associate with them. If enough people believe that their personality has changed, and this change puts this person in danger, perhaps that’s the point at which they should intervene? Who can say?
The fact of the matter is, even where most facets of life can’t be divided into black and white issues, mental illness is particularly defiant of categorization. It strikes at the very heart of the personality, the essence of who someone is, and it comes from within. It’s like a cancer in the mind, where something produced within eats away and warps the growth of the person. Except it’s even more difficult to understand in physical terms: At least with cancer, we can differentiate between natural and unnatural growths. Perhaps it’s merely because our understanding of the brain is so poor, and as we learn more such conversations can be less terrifyingly imprecise. Or, perhaps, the brain simply isn’t capable of fully comprehending its own functioning, and we’ll be forever trying to erect artificial divisions between sanity and insanity to try to make sense of a difference which we know to be there but which never can be pinpointed, because its center and outer bounds all lie within us.
Sorry to meander. I find it an interesting, if sad, thing to talk about. As I said before, I believe this to be one of the most irresolvable conundrums I’ve encountered. Any thought begun on the subject will inevitably eat its own tail.
Most people have some sort of documented mental disorder even if they haven’t been diagnosed. The guy wasn’t crazy, he was just sick of everything. I don’t know if he did it before he enlisted, but I know military service can inspire depression.
Depression medication has actually been shown to increase the rate of suicide. I knew a guy online who was depressed, got on anti-depressant medication, and then, KILLED HIMSELF.
So yes, I really don’t recommend taking medication for depression, based on my experience.
Interestingly this is the first time I’ve agreed with I Like Cake so much. :)
I meant anti-depressant medication above, not “depression medication”, obviously.
We also have no idea if Shawn was on anti-depressant medication or not when he killed himself; it could have been the reason. It increases suicide rate drastically for teenagers.
You don’t normally agree with I Like Cake? He seems to be a chap prone to talking sense.
“Depression medication has actually been shown to increase the rate of suicide. I knew a guy online who was depressed, got on anti-depressant medication, and then, KILLED HIMSELF.
So yes, I really don’t recommend taking medication for depression, based on my experience.”
You can’t recommend or NOT recommend something based on a single personal experience, for obvious reasons. Also, what you said doesn’t necessarily suggest that the anti-depressants lead to his suicide. It only suggests that they failed to prevent it.
Oh, but, yeah, I’ll have to look into what you say about anti-depressants increasing suicide rates in teenagers.
“Medication will NOT change your personality, it will only improve your mood.”
I hate blanket statements like these. You have to treat depression on a individual basis. I’m close to someone who went on anti-depressants and it destroyed their personality. Imagine a sine wave, with ups and downs representing periods of happiness and sadness. We all have these ups and downs… without the down how could you appreciate the up? For this person, meds turned the wave into a flat line. Sure, no sadness… at the cost of little to no happiness.
IMO, meds should be used as a LAST resort. As mentioned numerous times in the thread, try lifestyle changes first. Relieve stress. Build up some good friendships. Meds are NOT a magic bullet, and should not be treated as such (even though a lot of the time, they unfortunately are).
it’s all natural selection. you can try to take medication or whatever but you cannot escape from the process of natural selection. some people aren’t meant to live, that’s just how it is.
There are many other people who literally aren’t meant to live due to inherent internal organ problems. But they get surgically treated and go forth and multiply, yet that doesn’t seem to bother anyone. In a few generations humans could face very interesting problems…
Anti-depressants might not even work for some. I remember the one I used to take just forced me to smile a lot. So what? I smiled and told jokes when I broke my arm, not that I was really happy then.
aaa, natural selection is a fact of the development of life, not a moral imperative.
Organisms which are less ‘fit’ are more likely to die off before producing offspring, hence over many generations, life tends to optimize ‘fitness.’ This is a natural process which describes the way the world functions, not an ethical ideal.
For some reason, many people seem to think it makes sense to extend this into moral philosophy, while failing to consider the absurdity of applying the same logic to other natural processes. To give an example, rape is not uncommon in the animal kingdom, among both humans and our close relatives. It is an efficient method of spreading genetic material. However, even most people who regard survivability as a moral quality would not say that rape is ethical simply because it could have an evolutionary function.
More generally, this is an example of the is/ought fallacy, which states baselessly that something ‘ought’ to be simply because it is. There’s no reason this should be the case. It is, however, great for reinforcing the status quo, when you start talking about how people who died tragically are supposed to be dead, how the rich are supposed to be rich and how the poor are supposed to be poor. That makes everything wrong with the world instantly okay in some non-specific, hazily defined sense.
Man, my comments get moderated like crazy. Is it because I’m TOO REAL!?
“As far as meds being mere placebos? Well… the same studies showed that sugary drinks had no direct contribution to kids acting crazy hyperactive, so I have to take that with a pinch of salt.”
Well, I have two issues with that, first of all, that is a different study. Refusing to believe the results of one study because you do not agree with the results of another study conducted by different researchers with a differing methodology is akin to refusing to believe me when I tell you your house is on fire because someone else once lied to you about the existence of Santa Claus.
Secondly, double blind studies actually point out only that there is no statistically significant correlation between sugar intake and hyperactivity. That does not mean there is no relation of any kind, simply that there is no general, linear relation across the entire sample which is recognizable, with some degree of certainty, as separate from other, uncontrolled contributing factors. This still leaves open the possibility, for example, that some children have slightly hyperactive behavior induced by sugar intake while others do not.
All the same, there is no real evidence that sugar does contribute to hyperactivity. This idea became popular in the 70s with the publishing of various diets discussing the evils of sugar without the benefit of supporting evidence. So far, the only meaningful correlation that has turned up in the sugar discussion is that parents who believe sugar contributes to hyperactivity are significantly more likely than parents who do not believe such a contributing factor exists to categorize a child’s behavior as hyperactive after the child has had a sugary drink or item of food. This strongly suggests that the perception is purely psychological.
Really, more than anything this indicates the necessity of controlled studies in gleaning accurate information. Many people may still believe that anti-depressants are effective because they have witnessed someone take anti-depressants and recover. However, despite these two events occurring together, there is a myriad of reasons which do not relate the two, such as alternate, coexisting treatments or even simple regression, which are simply not observable in the individual case.
Studies are not perfect, carrying out an accurate study is extremely complicated and requires a great deal of expertise in terms of assembling a model, gathering data and interpreting results. However, studies allow us to determine the long run probability of an event, which is completely indeterminable from a single, individual observation. A study which uses an incorrect methodology can yield spurious results. However, that does not mean that studies are inferior to personal observation, which is just as likely as not to yield spurious results. That is analogous to purchasing a broken electronic device over a working device because of the possibility that the working device might break at some point.
To get back to the main argument (sorry for writing an entire book here, there are a lot of comments to address), the studies on anti-depressants do not indicate they do nothing. Anti-depressants are drugs which can have serious effects. The studies indicate only that anti-depressants have no significant contribution to the treatment of depression. That suggests that taking anti-depressants makes you just as likely to recover from depression as you would be if you didn’t take them. That does not mean they have no effect, they just don’t affect depression.
In other words, the treatment is fake, but the side-effects are real.
I don’t like the assumption that a person who kills themself automatically = depressed person.
People can kill themselves for a plethora of other reasons besides being depressed. One example I can give is someone who has achieved everything they’ve wanted to achieve in life to the point where living on is useless because they feel their life is complete and they can die happy. Or they could have some other mental illness besides depression or even a physical illness that they can’t get rid of and don’t want to live with anymore.
Sorry, I don’t mean to sound distasteful. Yeah, we know he killed himself. But it does not state why and within a few posts, Derek automatically jumped to the assumed that this kid was depressed. Why? If it was stated on some other website that he was indeed suffering from a form of depression, then show us. Otherwise, don’t just assume that since he killed himself that he was suffering from depression
I don’t regret my statement, because it generated a lot of good discussion! BUT, I apologize sincerely for making the issue seem so black and white. It’s a very complex problem, and should be treated on an individual basis.
Generally, I think being aware of your feelings, changing your lifestyle, talking to friends/family, are all proper solutions, and should be done regardless of whether you talk to a counselor or try medication (with care, of course).
A seriously depressed friend of my family went on medication, and it seemed to have very positive effects on her life. She went as far as to say that she never knew what it was like to truly be happy until that point. I don’t know (and probably no one can know) what parts of her treatment really brought her to that point, so it’s far from “proof” of anything. It’s just where I’m coming from.
well, really, what is the point in living, you are FORCED to work your whole life, and only receive freedom when you are 60+, and that depends on if you worked well enough when you was younger.
the alternative is you find a forest to live in, build a hut, catch your own food and get your own water. even then the forest will likely be owned, you will be deemed as a “madman”/”hippy” and you will not have things like electricity and… g- … g-games. :O
Understood, Derek. I just wanted to throw a counter-point into the mix. The four points you made are likely true for a good number of people. I get on the offensive when people talk glowingly about anti-depression meds because, even though they can work, I really think they are over-prescribed.
I apologize for the double post, but I wanted to respond to robolee’s comment. You make a good point about the society American’s live in (maybe the rest of the world? My world-view is pretty narrow). Either sacrifice your creative nature and play into a well-entrenched corporate system, or live in poverty. There are definitely some people who “play the game” well and end up having enough money to live comfortable without sacrificing time and energy on fruitless tasks, but they are not the majority. What other options do we have than the two extremes of corporate shill and backwoods hippy? I think many people (GAME DEVELOPERS?) are looking for a good medium but it’s difficult to find without sliding into poverty.
What I came out from the study with was the impression that it was indicating that the general prescription of the drugs covered weren’t appropriate for the wide spectrum of depression. That’s not to say that they do not effect depression, just that they’re not effective for milder cases and not appropriate to be prescribed as such (and overly prescribed also).
I don’t want to reiterate too much of what has been said already, but the treatment has to be on a case by case basis - and sometimes those cases are misjudged, misdiagnosed or treated incorrectly - whether that be through a lack of understanding, a lazy doctor or whatever.
It’s disingenuous to state they have absolutely no effect on depression as a blanket statement because there’s a weight of evidence that proves otherwise, and indeed it’s something that the report cited here as shocking new evidence to the contrary backs up.
“You can’t recommend or NOT recommend something based on a single personal experience, for obvious reasons.”
Actually I disagree. My epistemology is what you can call radical empiricism. I don’t trust “studies”, I trust my own experience, and only my own experience. You can disagree with that epistemology, but you can’t say I can’t use it.
Which is not to say studies are worthless. They can be useful when your own personal experience is limited or absent.
But what I mean is a second-hand report is always inferior to a first-hand report. If 1000 guys say they know a guy who knows a guy who has seen a fairy, that doesn’t mean as much to me as if I actually saw a fairy myself. No amount of studies can prove to me that a fairy exists, until I see it myself.
Another thing is, most of the knowledge we have and use every day didn’t come from the scientific method, it came from personal trial and error. We learned how to walk, how to open doors, how to type – we learned how to live –from experience, trial and error, personal experimentation. It’s strange to simply disregard all that because there are no studies to back it up.
For instance, there are probably no studies to show that walking on two legs is any better for humans than crawling, but should that stop us from walking, or recommending that others walk rather than crawl, even though it’s only based on our personal experience?
But is it a good idea to recommend walking on two legs after only your first step? I think that’s closer to what Corpus was trying to get at.
Also, I believe under your definition the experience you were recommending was a second-hand one. That is, you weren’t the depressed person nor did you take the medication.
(Not to say you were wrong in recommending at all. Especially since I also offered an opinion with second-hand knowledge.)